# Poor Counseling Sermon transcript from Cross Church Phoenix. Series: Job Date: September 27, 2026 Watch: https://crosschurchcares.com/phoenix/episodes/poor-counseling ## Summary Are you struggling to understand suffering in your life or the lives of those around you? Why do we often jump to conclusions about the reasons behind pain? Join us as we explore Job's journey and the misguided counsel of his friends. Let's dive in together! ## Transcript Well, good morning Cross Church Phoenix. How are you? >> Good. Good morning. I'm Pastor DJ. I'm the pastor here at Cross Church Phoenix. If you're new with us, welcome in. And with that, let's open our Bibles to Job chapter 4. And if you don't have a Bible, there's one in the seat back in front of or around you. Job chapter 4. And you can use that Bible if you need one and make it your own. That is our gift to you. We will gladly replace it. And you can highlight it, mark it up, underline, take notes, and make it your own Bible and bring it back next week. As you're turning to Job 4, I want to give you a little update on the We Care weekend coming up. So, as uh Brian shared with us, there's a lot of things going on here. We've got uh Rooted and Ready, and if you haven't signed up for that, there's still um spots left. So, you can sign up for that. I will get you in. Um, and that's this Tuesday. We've got the work day coming up. That is also, by the way, going to be both inside and outside. So, there'll be some folks um if if it's still kind of hot and warm or if you just want to work inside. We got some places in the church that need to be cleaned inside. And then we're also going to focus our efforts out in the garden cleaning that up. So, that's what the church work day will be. That is Saturday the October 10th. We'll do like 8 to 10 a.m. And then we also have weekare weekend coming up. Weekare weekend is I think we have a slide might still have a slide for it. No, it's not announcements time. Um but I want to give you a quick update on that. We are going to go uh and bless um the the shelter. There's a women and children's shelter right behind us. Um October 24th and 25th. The 24th is the Saturday before. I'm still working out some details, but we ran into the leadership uh over there. She's wonderful. She's awesome and uh is a believer as well and it's great getting to know her. She's all in and wants us to come. However, it's owned by the city of Phoenix and the city has a little bit of an issue with the whole church coming onto the property. So, what we're going to do is we're going to host it in our own backyard and we share that gate and we can open the gate. They can come to us. The cool part about it is that this is going to be open to the entire church. So, we're also doing a food and clothing drive, but all are welcome to come. And so, we we're receiving donations now, but if you also are in need of children's clothing or women's clothing or anything like that, um, sorry, guys. Um, but it's going to be mostly that. Um, you can come take part of that. Uh, we're going to have like kind of mini mini fall festival. There's going to be games and stuff. We found or we have a um an uh shaved ice machine and it works. So, we are gonna have Yeah. Yeah. We have We're going to have snow cone stuff like that. Um but anyways, we're going to have fun back there. But basically, it's going to be hosted on our property. All the whole church family is invited. Bring all the kids. It's going to be fun. But and then our emphasis though will be having them come join us, interact, fellowship, and we get to bless them. and any leftover food or clothing is going to be taken to them. If you are curious like what do I bring, we have little I think we're running out um praise the Lord and we have to make more but we have littleformational sheets on the back where the uh handouts are saying what we need. So we need any and all women's clothing and then there are specific sizes for the children's clothing that they're looking for. There's about I don't know maybe 30 or so kids over there. Um there's 11 I believe um women and children like family units over there. So uh be in prayer for that. The 25th of course is the Sunday following. That's going to be just kind of a celebratory lunch fellowship afterwards for any and all who come to church that day. Um so Saturday will also be an invite to come join us Sunday. Um so we are receiving the donations, the clothing donations right now and the food um in the ministry office. We're trying to be as um organized as we can. So, uh, we have buckets that are labeled and everything. So, make sure that you put it in the right bucket. And, uh, the food as well we're taking. We can, uh, we need to make a spot in the ministry office for that. But we are receiving those now. All right. If you got questions, you can ask me later. Uh, but this, we're working this out, but it's going to be great. As you know by now, if you've been following along with us um uh the past few weeks, we left Job in a state of uh depression and despair. He is in a bad way. Um we learned in Job chapter 3. And Job hasn't just had like a bad week in the office or woke up on the wrong side of the bed the past few days. He has experienced extreme tragedy after extreme tragedy. If you remember, lifealtering bad news came to him like rapid fire in chapter 1. His life has significantly changed for the worse. He's lost everything, including his own children. Well, by now news has spread, as drama usually does, um, in in humanity, news has spread about Job's plight, and three of his friends now have shown up to sit with him. The original plan that his three friends had was, in my opinion, a very good and noble plan. This is a great plan. Their plan is in chapter 2 11. It says that they met together to what? Go and sympathize with him and comfort him. Yes. And they were off to a great start at first. They sat with him for a week and listened to him lament uh his life in chapter 3. But will they actually sympathize with him and comfort him? Unfortunately, we're going to see, spoiler alert, they're not super helpful. This morning we get to hear from friend number one, Elephaz. And he has watched Job this past seven days or so. He's heard Job's lament in chapter 3, and now he's got some counsel for Job. Let's pray. Father, I thank you for this morning. I thank you for your word. Pray God that as we get into this uh somewhat difficult book um to grasp and take hold of. I pray Lord that we would see the truth in it that you are as we sang sovereign over us. Yes and amen every day and twice on Sunday. Lord, we thank you that we serve a God who is in control because the alternative is chaos, Lord, but you are in control and you are good. Pray God that you would give us ears to hear what the spirit has to say to the church here at Cross Church in Jesus name. Amen. Well, I invite you to stand as we read scripture together. Again, I'm going to read excerpts of uh Job 4 through7, not the entire four chapters. And if you're unable to stand, no worries. You can just stand with us in spirit, simply honoring God's word together. Uh by way of reminder, we are we're taking big chunks of Job because these are narrative sections that go together. If we were to just do this like three verses at a time, for one, we'd be here until the new heavens and the new earth. And two, um it would it would we would be missing the point. So Job 4 beginning at verse one and read 1-8 and then a few verses from the following chapters. It reads this way. It says, ' Then Elephaz the Temonite replied, "Should anyone try to speak with you when you are exhausted, yet who can keep from speaking? Indeed, you have instructed many and have strengthened weak hands. Your words have steadied the one who was stumbling and braced the knees that were buckling. But now that this has happened to you, you have become exhausted. It strikes you when you are dismayed. Isn't your piety, your confidence, and the integrity of your life your hope? Consider, now verse 7 is key. Elephas is speaking. He says, consider who has perished when he was innocent. Where have the honest been destroyed? In my experience, he says, those who plow injustice and those who sow trouble reap the same. Now let's jump down to chapter 5 27. Elephas closes out and he says this, "We have investigated this and it is true. Hear it and understand it for yourself." Chapter 6:es 24- 27, Job has been responding and he says, "Teach me and I will be silent. Help me understand what I did wrong. How painful honest words can be. But what does your rebuke prove? Do you think that you can disprove my words or that a desparing man's words are mere wind? No doubt you would cast lots for a fatherless child and negotiate a price to sell your friend. In the last two verses of chapter 7, Job says, "If I have sinned, what have I done to you, watcher of humanity?" He is now directing his attention toward God. Why have you made me your target so that I become a burden to you? Why not forgive my sin and pardon my iniquity? For soon I will lie down in the grave. You will eagerly seek me, but I will be gone. Amen. Thanks. You can be seated. Lot going on in this interaction between Job and Elephaz, but remember all of the friends are there. In chapters four and five, Job receives his first round of counseling. And as we get further into Job, you'll see that these rounds of counsel um come in cycles. But for this morning, we get to see the first glimpses into what Job's friend think. Okay, think the problem is as Elephaz will kick things off for us. Our main heading this morning is this. Poor counseling from Professor Elephas. He will miss the mark greatly. Unfortunately for Job, he will not be very helpful. I'm calling him professor or the doctor because most commentators believe, and I'm inclined to agree, that he's the oldest guy in the group because he speaks first. So he takes the initiative as the oldest and wisest. He's also from a place called T-Man. T-Man is referred elsewhere in the Bible in like Jeremiah and where God is speaking. T-Man is known as a place where there are lots of wise people. A it's a known to be a place where there is much wisdom. So Elefaz the Temonite hails from a land known for producing wisdom. Just how wise he is remains to be determined. It's a little bit of irony there. At the outset of this, I want us to know something upfront about what all three of Job's friends believe about suffering. Because as we go through Job, you're going to see, like I said before, cycles and repetition. They all three believe the same thing that I want to show you is incorrect and wrong. But you're going to see it repeated over and over. So my goal is to give you the grand foundation this morning so that as we go through the next few weeks because this interaction is going to go for like the next 30 chapters. So we'll spend the next seven or eight weeks interacting with Job and his friends until finally God steps in which I can't wait for. Can't wait to preach the end. It's going to be great. But until we get there I want us to also look at it from different angles. Okay, as we go through, but this consider this morning the grand picture of what all three of the friends believe about suffering. All three of Job's friends believe in what's called retribution principle or you could say retributive principle. What is the retribution principle? The word retribution means a deserved and severe punishment or payback for a wrong action. A deserved and severe punishment or payback for a wrong action. The retribution principle teaches that God blesses or brings suffering to us based upon our actions. Now, this is not true. I'm telling you what they believe and think. So, according to Job's friends, if we're blessed, it's must be because we're doing good. And if we're suffering, then it's because we're doing something bad. And for his three friends, it must be because you're in sin. We are in sin. Now, I want to explain this quickly to you. And this is our first point. Dr. Elephas teaches a false theological syllogism many still believe. Now you say, DJ, what on earth is a syllogism? It's a syllogism originated in ancient Greek philosophy. It's basically a systematic way to draw conclusions. And I'm using this to teach us even though yes, I get ancient Greek job predates the Greeks. I get all of that, but I'm using this to teach us what they believe. A syllogism has three parts. You'll probably recognize it when I give you the example. But it's a major premise followed by a minor premise which then brings a conclusion. So maybe you've heard this one before. Um the ancient example goes like this. All humans are mortal. That would be the major premise. The minor premise would be the example in ancient Greek philosophy is Socrates is mortal. That's your minor premise. And you have your conclusion. Therefore, Socrates is mortal. Did I say that wrong? All humans are mortal. Socrates is human. Therefore, Socrates is mortal. That's what a syllogism is. Well, Dr. Elephas along with Bildad and Zofar all buy into a false theological syllogism and I propose to you that many of us still might fall into this today when we think about suffering. So let me give you this false syllogism that the three friends believe. It goes like this and this is in your notes. Okay, this is what they believe. All suffering is God's retribution for sin. Now I have in parenthesis right false major premise because this is not true. So that is 1. A B would be Job is suffering. That's a true minor premise, right? Yes, he's suffering. We see that. So therefore they conclude C therefore Job's suffering is punishment for his sin. False conclusion. The problem with this logic that we just walked through is found in the first major premise. That's where it fails. Job's friends believe that all suffering uh is God's retribution for sin. And the issue is that what we're learning in Job does not match that first major premise. In fact, chapters 1 and two tell us the exact opposite about Job. Job is, if you recall, a blameless and upright man who fears God and turns from evil. And God says that about Job, not just once, but twice to reiterate the fact that Job is not suffering for his sin. Okay. One of the major overarching lessons we learn in Job is this. Not all suffering is the result of sin. So although the minor premise is true, yes, of course Job is suffering, we still draw a wrong conclusion that Job is suffering punishment for his sin because it's wrong to assume the first major premise in the first place that all suffering is God's retribution for sin. But that's what Elephaz believes. And we see this in verses 7 and 8 of chapter 4. If you look at it, he says, Elephas says, "Consider who has perished when he was innocent. Where have the honest been destroyed?" In my experience, those who plow injustice and those who sow trouble reap the same. That's Elf saying this basically innocent people don't suffer. And while this is pre-Jesus Christ coming as Emmanuel, God with us, we immediately know that to be false because Christ is perfect and innocent of all sin and yet suffered greatly. And we'll kind of come back to Christ later. He's saying innocent people don't suffer. Honest people don't suffer. In his experience, blah blah blah blah blah. Meaning what his authority is himself in his experience. Those who plow injustice and those who sow trouble reap the same. His point is that Job must have been plowing injustice and sewing trouble all along. Job, you must have been putting on a show that you love God deep down in your heart. You must have been hiding sin to deserve such punishment. And now, Job, you're getting your comeuppins. That's the official term. your comeuppins, Job. You're getting what you deserved all along. And he goes on, Elephaz does to dig into Job even more. If you look down at verses 10 and 11, we didn't read them, but he's talking about a strong lion who is unable to catch prey, dying, and then unable to protect its cubs. He's talking about Job's children dying as a result of Job's own lack of ability to provide and protect them. Job must be in some sin that cost him his children's lives is what Elephaz is producing. And he goes on to tell Job about a dream he had. And you I encourage you to read this on your own and in Bible groups. And in his dream, uh, Elephaz will share things that are true. So, what I want you to remember is that Job's three friends will say true things about God along the way. The problem is they are misapplying them to Job. For example, one of the questions he raises, which the implied answer is no, is can a man be purer than his maker? The implied answer is no. And that's what Elaz is saying. Job, do you think that you could be more pure than your maker? The problem is Job's not saying that. Job is not claiming to be more pure than his maker or more pure than God. In fact, Job knew what the opposite is true about he and his family. That's why we read in chapter 1 that he is up early in the morning. What? Making sacrifices to purify his family in case they sinned. So Job knows that sin brings impurity and sin demands a sacrifice. But again, Elfaz has the diagnosis wrong and therefore the antidote he is offering is also wrong. And he continues to lay it on Job in chapter 5. Job, you can cry out all you want. Uh the opening verses of chapter 5 are basically saying, look, Job, you can cry out all you want. No one in heaven's listening to you. That's what he's saying. Again, he's implying that Job's unconfessed hidden sin is closing heaven's ears to him. But then he'll go on to say good things later, right? And I'm rapid fire summarizing, but he says in verse 8, Job, you should appeal to God. And then he says all these things about God that are true. God does do great and uncarchable things and he brings rain and all the rest. But then in verse 17, as Elephaz closes his speech, he tells Job what not to reject the discipline of Almighty God, which technically is good advice. We do know biblically from the scriptures that God does discipline those whom he loves. As a father would discipline his son that he loves for his good, so God will discipline those whom he loves. That is a biblical principle. But that statement is misapplied to Job because Job isn't suffering discipline for his sin. And if you look at verse 27 of chapter 5, Elephas's confidence oozes out, right? We've investigated this. We've looked into all of this. We know this about God and it is true. You should learn that too, Job. The problem is it's not true. He's speaking from complete ignorance. Confidence and boldness doesn't mean you're right. Right? The loudest person in the room doesn't make him automatically correct. Right? So ultimately, Elephas has been unhelpful. And that's our second main point why this is unhelpful. And I'll just give you two quick reasons. Elephas's council is unhelpful. First of all, because it's just plain old not true. It isn't true. As true as Elephaz thinks his words are, unfortunately, his entire thought process is based upon the false major premise that we talked about already. It's simply not true that all suffering we experience is a result of sin. But second, which I think can hit us harder, hit us at home better, be to be it minimizes God to our finite understanding. That's what's up. That's really what's going on here. Elephaz is minimizing God to his own understanding. How often are we just like Elephaz? We want God to fit in our little boxes. The alternate title to my sermon, I wound up not going with it, but was going to be why God doesn't fit into your little box. Um, but I wound up with, you know, Elephaz's poor counsel because that's ultimately what's going on. But God, we want God to fit into our little boxes. Elephas thinks God fits into his little box that has a label called this is why people suffer. And in his little box is a piece of paper that says because they sinned to kind of put it in your mind that way. We you and I may have a similar box that says this is why people suffer. That's the label. And we open that box and in our own little box is our own little piece of paper that says, you know, because they deserve it or because they sinned, because they had it coming, because they did something so terrible like, uh, you know, Hitler deserves to suffer, but no one else. You know, you got to really earn it. And the problem is that God does not fit into our little box and we don't like it because it forces humanity. It forces us to admit that God is bigger and his ways are higher than ours. And it's hard for humans like you and I to admit it. Right? So often we want to sit uh in the seat of supreme righteous judgment. This is where Elephaz is like, "Let me tell you exactly what God thinks of the situation." He has no idea. Right? In the book of Revelation, there's a shout of praise going to God from the altar, saying, "Righteous and true are your judgments, O Lord." But humanity would rather it say, "Righteous and true are my judgments, oh Lord, and you should listen to me." And it doesn't work that way. We want to dictate how God should work. We want to tell him what he should do, and it just doesn't work that way. If I could summarize God's response at the end of Job, it would be this. You can run the universe your way when you create one. Yeah, that's it. Job, where were you? Right when I created that he God will point out all these things to Job at the end. You can read ahead if you would like. But when you create your own universe, that's the one you can be in charge of and God will simp, you know, all right, make it happen and let me know when that happens. And it's not going to. And I say that jokingly, but also seriously to point out our smallalness as humans. I say it to vividly point out our smallalness. We are not God. He is. And as you can see, uh, Job does not feel very comforted by Elephass. Now, in chapter six, he's still broken. He admits his own frailty and he still wants God to uh take him out sooner than later, right? And it doesn't sound very nice, but um ultimately he's still trusting God with his life and refuses to take it himself. If I had more time, I would take us through some of the poetic language here, but again, you can talk through this in Bible groups, but I'll give you a few here that are kind of confusing sometimes. Uh, verses five and six of chapter 6, uh, Job says, he's speaking now, "Does a wild donkey bray over fresh grass or an ox low over its fodder? Is bland food eaten without salt? Is there flavor in an egg white?" Deep theology from Job, right? is their flavor in an egg white. And what he's saying is that donkeys and oxen don't complain when they have what they need, right? They don't complain for nothing. Job is using that to say neither am I. Job was okay. If Job was okay, he wouldn't be crying out the way that he is. But he is crying out because he's suffering genuinely. So what he's saying is just like salt goes with tasteless food or an egg white needs flavoring, so his cries go with his suffering he's experienced. He's saying salt goes with tasteless food. My crying out and complaints go with my suffering. He says, "And I refuse to touch them." Meaning he refuses to have his tasteless food or his egg white uh without flavor. He refuses to also suffer without crying out. He refuses to suffer in silence, so to speak, is what he's getting at. And that's why he says, "I will speak." If you read all of six and seven, I will open my mouth and voice my complaints. He's saying that this these go together. He wants God, verse eight, to provide his request, what he hopes for, which again is is death. And even though it doesn't sound pretty, he's still trusting God with his life. He wants ultimately Job wants God to step in, not his friends, not anyone else. He wants God to do something. In verses 15 to 21 of chapter um 6, Job even pokes fun at his friends in his own misery. Um he says, "You guys are like a dried up riverbed promising refreshment, promising water from afar, but when you get close, you realize it's bone dry. There's no refreshment." And to summarize the end of chapter 6, Job is like, "I never asked you for help. Elephaz, your rebu your rebuke proves nothing." And Job will hold on to his integrity. And when you get into chapter 7, which I can't walk us through, of course, but he turns his attention to God. He's crying out to God in chapter 7. And when he gets to the end, verses 20 and 21, he says, "Look, if I have sinned, show me." He is pouring his heart out to God and asking like, "I'm not aware of anything I've done, but if I had, Lord God, show me. And if I have sin, please forgive me." And with that, Job ends and Bill Dad will pick up next week. But the bottom line is that Elephaz had too narrow a view of God and why God allows suffering. And I think we do, too. I'm not going to pretend to. I'm not going to stand up here and pretend to know all the answers. Not because I don't. But I do want to share with you another syllogism that I put together. One that we can hold on to and believe when life gets hard. So number three to close us out, a theological syllogism that we can that we must believe. A all suffering is under God's sovereignty. True major premise, right? And then you have B your minor premise. Job is suffering and I have right. So do we. Our suffering we suffer. That's also true. Minor premise. C. How do we draw a right conclusion about this though? Therefore, Job's suffering and our suffering, right, is under God's control. C. True conclusion from a true premise. Elephaz was so concerned with proving he's right that he never actually comforts Job. We learn not only from Job about trusting God with our suffering, especially suffering that makes no sense, but we also learn from Elephaz on what not to do when you are consoling others in suffering. Don't be don't be more concerned with being right than being helpful. That's the problem. Job's friends have they're they're more concerned about proving their point than actually loving and helping Job. Now, I want to balance this. Now, of course, if Job was an unrepentant sin, they'd have a case, right? If it was, Job, I saw you steal that loaf of bread from the neighbor, or Job, I saw you cheat on your wife, or whatever it was, bro, you need to repent and get right with God. Yes and amen. There are times where we are confronted with our unrepentant sin. Yes. But if we what we're learning in Job, right, is that sometimes we can suffer or our family or friends or fellow brothers and sisters in Christ will suffer genuinely not holding on to unconfessed sin. If someone's like going through hard times and they're like, I don't know why. I don't know. I'm not aware of any unconfessed sin. And they're genuine, right? I get it. Every people can lie. But if they're honestly like, I don't I'm not aware of anything I've done wrong. Perhaps that is an opportunity for us to just love and walk through them with it. Because we don't know everything. We don't know the end of the story anymore than Job knows the end of his life. Job doesn't know chapter 42 yet, just like you don't know the end of your life either. Suffering isn't This is my big picture thing I want to keep in the back of your mind the rest of the Job series. Suffering isn't just for sin. Yes, God will discipline those whom he loves, but God can also allow us to be tested, to draw us closer to him, to build our faith, to strengthen our walk through him, and allow suffering to come our way. And when we suffer, we can look to Christ, the only one to truly suffer innocently. We suffer as sinners undeserving of God's grace. He suffered as perfection, undeserving of death. But he chose it for you and for me. Jesus knows suffering far more than any of us can claim to know suffering. And Paul tells us in Romans chapter 8:1 17 that if we suffer with him, what we will also be glorified with him. Suffering in this life is not the end. Glory is. And we have these precious promises in God's word. I'm not going to sit here and act like I know all the answers to why you've gone through what you've gone through. Some of it could be sin that brings repercussions. Some of it could just be that God for reasons beyond us allowed in your life. But the one thing I can tell you and stand upon and stand here right here and tell you, you can trust God with it. You can trust God with it. as was alluded to before I think last service um it was great great point um uh Jordan I think you mentioned this uh but uh you know who sinned that this man was born blind people came to Jesus and asked that right yeah this this this thought this idea someone had to sin for this guy to be born blind it had to his parents must have done something real dumb right no Jesus says that the glory of God might be revealed. What? This guy was born blind. He had to be blind for however many years and finally be given his sight to show the glory of God. Yes, the glory glorifying God is bigger than you. Glorifying God is the number one thing. I've shared this catechism 101, right? What is the chief end of man? to glorify God and enjoy him forever. That's what do you think martyrdom is? Martyrdom is Christians, believers suffering to the point of death for what? The glory of God. And you say, why? I don't know. We'll ask God when we get to heaven. Why did God take Jim Elliott as soon as he did? Jim Elliott could have done such great things uh with the tribe that he was ministering to there. You can read his story. him and his wife Elizabeth. Why did God take Jim Elliot so quickly in the missionary process? Ask God. And if you read his story, you can see some of the outcome and the ministries that they have had and the testimony it has. So I think it was God used his uh his martyrdom to bring many of the ala alan Indian tribes to himself to glory. Many of them got saved as a result. But we don't always see the end. And Isaiah says that God sees the end from the beginning. Guess what, Pastor DJ does not see the end from the beginning, and neither do we, but God does, and we can trust him. I want to invite the worship team up um as I close us in prayer. Father, we thank you for this morning. I thank you for your word as we uh look into just brief glimpses. Um and hopefully Lord um we'll all read through this on our own to see more of the interaction. But as we look at the interaction between Jo between Job and his friends, we see a faulty thinking that does not line up with truth. And the faulty thinking is that innocent people never suffer. It is simply not true. And Lord, it's hard. I'm not. We might disagree with these statements. We might have our own thoughts and opinions, Lord, on why suffering exists and who should suffer and who should not. And these are real realities, real things that we wrestle with. And I'm not minimizing that at all. I've wrestled through this a lot this week and in the coming weeks pastorally. God, help me to relay this well. I pray God that you would move in the hearts of your people. Help them to see that you are God alone and you are trustworthy even when we don't understand. We can trust you. does require giving up our own sovereignty, giving up our own control. But it's good. It's good for us to trust you and to let you be in control rather than ourselves. Pray these things in Jesus name. Amen. Let's stand as we sing our last song.